Who’s the bastard ?

Update : I’m putting this update at the start so people can see it…

I’m tired of repeating the same thing over and over again, so I’ll make this clear once and for all : I *never* said that Alvaro is a bastard.. the title of this post is an answer to the hundreds of people who told *ME* that I’m a bastard for doing what I’ve done.

Secondly, we *never* stole anything from Alvaro, his work is still credited to him, he still appears as a developer and the founder, the only thing that we’ve done is to remove him from the “list of currently active developers” because he’s not active anymore (and hasn’t been for over 3 years). He abandoned aMSN, and I see no reason why he would have to be mad if aMSN ‘abandoned’ him in return.

He’s saying it was a “coup d’etat”, which is over-exagerating, it makes it feel like he was the most active developer, and then he gave me admin privileges and I kicked him out right away… no, that is not true, and he never said that himself (but people seem to understand it like that), he left aMSN years ago, and I’ve been managing aMSN for over 7 years now, while he’s been the project leader for maybe 2 years (he would need to confirm that, as I’m not sure when the roles switches from him to me).

The only thing I believe was a wrong doing was to not notify everyone of that cleanup that I did in the list of active developers, and for that, I already apologized, and I don’t know why he had to blog about this story and harm aMSN’s reputation (and mine specifically).

And here is a copy/paste of a discussion I had with Alvaro back in 2007 (3 years ago) after he was accidentally deleted from the list of active developers :

Álvaro : i don’t mind being removed
Álvaro : do what you want, really
KaKaRoTo : btw, you’re not in amsn project anymore
KaKaRoTo : you want me to add you ?
Álvaro : yes i know
Álvaro : i’m not doing anything right now
Álvaro : so i don’t see the point
Álvaro : if i want to code in amsn again, i can be readded then
KaKaRoTo : you’re back :p
Álvaro : thanks

And finally… We told Alvaro from the very beginning that if he wants to code for aMSN again and be active, he just needs to tell us and he’ll be immediately added back to the ‘list of active developers’ and have full SVN access. But he said that he doesn’t have time and doesn’t want to do anything. He’s welcome to join us anytime, he was never kicked, it was never a “coup d’etat”, it’s a simple matter of whether or not he’s an active developer now or if he’s not, and he currently isn’t.

I don’t know what more I need to say for people to actually understand what happened….

End of the update: Back to the original post…

Wow, what a shock…

This post is a reply to Alvaro’s blog post. To those who don’t read spanish, there’s always google translate..

Basically, what happened is that I did a cleanup round on every inactive developer a few months ago (almost a year ago) and Alvaro realized that only recently and asks why, to which I explained that inactive developers were removed, and since he was inactive for over 3 years, he also got removed from the team members, as I want to keep it minimal to reflect the real status of the project. He did not like it, and he requested he’d be added again. to which we ALL (admins) responded that it wasn’t justified and that he was being childish (because of how he kept answering), then we added him again as team members, but he then told us to remove him again … you can read the whole thread here.

Now, Alvaro decides to post on his blog (in spanish) and put it on meneame (digg-like equivalent for spanish people) in which he says that I’m a bastard who prepared a “coup d’etat” to exile him, and that we started insulting him and stating me specifically, he says it’s “no surprise coming from that person”, trying to make me look like a bastard…

So here’s my answer to Alvaro :

First, aMSN is aMSN, it’s not “Alvaro’s Messenger”. It was called like that back then, when you were alone in the project, then you said that it didn’t deserve the name because it wasn’t your work anymore, it was the work of everybody involved and it belonged to the community now, and so the name was changed to be only “aMSN” with no particular hidden meaning, that was maybe 5 or 6 years ago. So why do you now state in your blog the name as being “Alvaro’s messenger”? Oh, is it because you want to generate even more sympathy towards your cause (troll) ?

Then you decide to explain your version of what happened.. some kind of ‘summary’ , full of false advertisement towards you.. did I “stab you in the back” like you said? no, I’m sorry but that’s not true, when you’re inactive from a project for that long, it is expected that you’d get removed from it, that’s normal. Yes, I probably should have notified you (and the 30 other people who got removed), but it wouldn’t have changed anything. Also I remember quite clearly that you told me yourself (before these events) to just remove you from the project because you were inactive, and I told you that it wasn’t necessary, that I might do it later, but that you could stay (at that time). For your information, launchpad automatically removes membership status to inactive developers every 6 months.. the system does it, not the project leader.. I wonder if you’d be insulting the machine too if sourceforge worked the same way…

And no, all you got wasn’t just a bunch of insults and shouts, we tried to reason with you, but you just wouldn’t listen, you were just being your childish usual self, a real crybaby. If you take that as an insult (you will, since that’s all we said to you that you considered being ‘insults’), then too bad, it’s just the truth, not my fault if you don’t like the truth. But how can you say that it’s really not a surprise coming from me? what, you want to make me look like a universal bastard who just insults everybody with no reason? Did you decide to make this your personal vendetta against me? You should know that this decision (and those ‘insults’) were not mine alone, *everybody* said and agreed on the exact same thing, but I’m always the one in the front lines, because I’m the project leader right now.

The aMSN development isn’t closed, and like we all said a few times already : It doesn’t matter what you did in the past!!!! Do you think that Bill Clinton can just go and yell and post on his blog how the security at the white house refused to let him move in there, and how they didn’t let him authorize the launch of a nuclear missile? Even after he told them “how about my past contributions”? No, the world doesn’t work like that, we were quite polite towards you, we said that we respect your work, we acknowledge what you’ve done, but if you’re going to be inactive and not do a thing, then you have no reason to be part of the team… We said that if you give us a reason to add you to the team, if you were going to become active, then you’d get your status back, but you just wanted to have your name up there and not do anything.. nope, it doesn’t work like that. You have to respect democracy and what everybody thinks, and you have to respect the rules that were being used by the team since day 1 (your own rules).

After some more whining on your part, You were added again to the members list!! But then you denied that, and said that you didn’t want it, so I removed you again (this time telling you that I removed you).  So don’t come making us look like bastards here!! Why did you fail to mention you were re-added at your request ?

No, I don’t like your blog, I don’t like how you make us (and mainly me) look, and I don’t like how you deform reality, I don’t like how you say we stabbed you in the back, how you said that we’re not giving you credit for your past work, and I don’t like how you think you’re some kind of God or something, and that you are in your absolute right to ask us whatever you want after disappearing for 3 years! You could have been dead for 3 years for all we know, you weren’t giving any sign of life, and you still dare come and say that you were “active” for all that time?  You say that I did a “coup d’etat”? I’ve been project manager of aMSN for a lot longer than you were, your last commit was maybe 3 years ago, but your last real contributions as a project manager was 6 years ago, that’s more than the life of the whole project.

Your blog has just proven to us once more what we’ve been saying from the start… I won’t say it, but let our readers decide on how you acted…  You decide to post a story about what “we did to you”, giving your own story of what happened, completely manipulating the facts to suit your ego, and you post it in spanish and post it in meneame, as if you thought we don’t know how to use google translate… You try to catch all of the spanish people’s patriotism, making them think “one of our own got stabbed in the back”.. and all you did was send us a few people to our IRC channel, who come and insult us, bastards, motherfuckers, then leave the channel.. yep, that’s the way a “leader” acts…

If you want to fork aMSN and rename it back to “Alvaro’s messenger”, then have fun, go ahead, do it and good luck with that, the more users you take from us, the less support we’ll give to people who don’t know how to use a computer.. But like I told you before, and I’ll tell you again, you are more than welcome to join the aMSN team again, you just need to be active. If you do have time to spend on aMSN and work on it, and you have patches for us, then you will be added. If you don’t want to send us your precious patches, and want to act all high and mighty and fork aMSN, then do it, but it will be your own loss.

But let me tell you one thing… although people say “don’t feed the troll”, I don’t care, if you want to talk trash about me, then bring it on, you’re not the only one who has a blog in this world, and I can make people see the truth, where you try to deform it.

Good luck with your life, and I hope I won’t be hearing from your anymore.

Update: Alvaro commented on meneame saying that he uses amsn but only to connect (never chat) and uses pidgin.. he also says : “I do not need nor do I have time or inclination (increasingly less) to continue with the project AMSN.” And that’s the reason why he’s not part of the team, it’s because he’s not active and doesn’t plan to be. Like some other people said, the status and lifetime of an open source project is unrelated to the original founder of the project. And I believe that’s what people must understand. I don’t like people who just want to cause issues and get people’s attention just to feed their ego…

Update 2: I just want to make sure people understand that Alvaro is still listed as a developer/founder, he appears in the amsn website, he’s in the README, etc.. but all we did was remove him from the “list of currently active developers” (the sourceforge membership list) and that’s what he didn’t like.

The title of this blog post “Who’s the bastard?” isn’t meant as an insult to Alvaro, it is meant to answer all those hundreds (probably thousands in the next couple of days) of comments on meneame and on Alvaro’s blog who are treating *me* of a bastard, son of bitch, stupid, etc.. without knowing the facts.

Alvaro decided to be a troll and start a flame war and a vendetta against aMSN, and I don’t care, but I won’t sit by watching him insult us without giving the real truth to people.

KaKaRoTo

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40 Responses to Who’s the bastard ?

  1. alexisdevel says:

    “and how they didn’t let him access confidential documents of the state?”

    actually.. that is one of his rights as ex-presidents

  2. kakaroto says:

    ah, I didn’t know that.. but anyways, he can still access all of aMSN’s code, you know :p But that’s not the point, that was just an example I was giving.

  3. Good bye aMSN Hello emesene says:

    I only have a thing to say:

    apt-get unistall amsn

  4. kakaroto says:

    your command will not work, you made a typo, it should be “uninstall”.. good luck!

  5. blablabla says:

    Bye bye ^^

  6. Pinger says:

    Kakaroto, you are making a big mistake. You should learn the word respect, and learn what the A means on aMSN.

    Greetings.

  7. kakaroto says:

    Pinger. We’re not making any mistake.. please take the time to read what I wrote, and read the update2 that I just posted, which makes things maybe a bit clearer. I have tons of respect for Alvaro, but he does not have any for anyone besides himself. I have tons of stories I could tell that would make him so embarassed he would hide forever, but I won’t say any because I’m not that kind of person.
    But what he did isn’t acceptable… bashing us and bitching about us on his blog and putting it in meneame (all spanish, knowing we don’t speak spanish), saying he wants people to know the ‘truth’ while in fact he just said lies.. I’m not ok with that. Take the time to read all the emails, read his blog post, then mine, before telling me about respect.
    And I know what ‘A’ means in aMSN, it means *NOTHING*.. it did mean Alvaro a few years ago, but it doesn’t mean anything right now.

  8. gasparmx says:

    apt-get uninstall amsn

  9. ales says:

    yum erase amsn

  10. Ikran is not horse says:

    This is my personal trick to solve all of these problems:

    Control Panel (Windows)–>Add or Remove Programs–>aMSN–>Remove.

  11. kakaroto says:

    it’s easier (and faster) to go to start->programs->amsn->uninstall

  12. João Morais says:

    First of all… sorry for my bad english. I have been using aMsn since the beginning of the project, and lately (i know….. i should’ve done this years ago) i have been wanting to write a post on the aMsn forum, or to send you an email, sadly… i just never took the time to do it. I just wanted to say……. THANK YOU!!! I thank you and every amsn developer (active or inactive)! You have taken your personal time and effort to work on an awsome project, for free, and the only thing you get is complaints! Most of us would just say…. f*ck this… and would give up and move on to other interesting things. You guys keep going even though you hear more stupid complaints than thank yous…. aMsn is the best WLM clone! I know… because i have compared them all!!! None compares to aMsn! Most aMsn users really apreciate your hard work and to those who don’t, i say… u can go f**k yourselves…. Don’t let this stupid situations make you think twice about keeping the project alive. So once again… Thank You! And PLEASE keep on going! Amsn2 FTW……in about 5 years or so. Maybe you guys should take a vacation… just to have more free time to work on aMsn! LOL! Just kidding.

  13. fortran says:

    If you have to ask… Well, you don’t need me to tell you the answer.

    Enjoy your five minutes of fame.

  14. I think you have made a BIG mistake. Everyone make mistakes, but only smart people recognize it and learn from that. I hope you can change in the future.

    Anyway for me:

    sudo zypper remove amsn

    P.D: You can continue with the project, but live is a very long cycle where you finally have to eat your own pet food. Long live to aMsn and all OpenSource projects.

  15. Well, first of all, I don’t want anyone to insult Youness or any other developer (or any people, developer or not) who has spent many hours working for YOU, AMSN users, no matter you think he’s right or wrong. The same should apply for me. Please, we all work or worked just for for your enjoyment, and we don’t deserve being insulted.

    Again, I didn’t ask a single time to be “accepted” in the project again.

    When you say “First, aMSN is aMSN, it’s not “Alvaro’s Messenger”. It was called like that back then”. I neved said it’s called AMSN, I just said “I started the development of AMSN (Alvaro’s Messenger)”. The “A” then was from “Alvaro”, it was a kind of joke because the project it forked from was called “Compu’s Messenger”.

    If, like you said, you don’t want to hear from me anymore, you can delete this comment, I’m posting it in my blog too. My blog won’t have censorship, it’s not my style.

  16. Well I could go on explaining many wrong things you say on this post, but you’ll probably you think I’m childish, so just to make some things clear (you can believe them or not):

    I wrote the post in spanish, because it’s my native language.

    I didn’t post it to meneame/digg, a friend of mine digged it.

    I neved expected it would have such a big impact, but I won’t deny I enjoy how much discussion has been raised.

    Maybe “coup d’etat” was an exageration, but “stab me in the back” is exactly like I feel.

    etc etc.

    Again, I’ll post this comment in my blog, just in case you consider it’s not worth publishing it.

  17. kakaroto says:

    You are acting so low.. you said the “Alvaro’s messenger” to make people see how it’s “your” product.. it’s just some kind of psychological thing.. but anyways, I don’t care..

    what I do care is how you said “don’t insult Youness” and then you go so low as to say I’m censoring comments! What kind of person am I to censor comments? I don’t do that.. what I did say I would delete are ‘spam’ comments like one comment I got that only had “blablablabla” in it. I don’t find it any more interesting than a “buy viagra” spam comment.

    Either way, this whole thing, you posting on your blog, and the whole meneame thing, that’s just something that a person desperate for attention would do, read the comments you got on your blog and on meneame, as someone said, all you did was to harm the project, if you’re happy with that, then have your ‘vengeance’, take it, and be proud of it.. but here’s just a little paste from a discussion we had on MSN 2 years ago :

    Álvaro : i don’t mind being removed
    Álvaro : do what you want, really
    KaKaRoTo : btw, you’re not in amsn project anymore
    KaKaRoTo : you want me to add you ?
    Álvaro : yes i know
    Álvaro : i’m not doing anything right now
    Álvaro : so i don’t see the point
    Álvaro : if i want to code in amsn again, i can be readded then
    KaKaRoTo : you’re back :p
    Álvaro : thanks

    And calling it a “coup” was overdoing it, because what people are reading/thinking is : you were the main developer until yesterday, then you added me, and as soon as I was added, I remove you and took ownership and now you have no way of getting back into aMSN… that’s what a coup is, and that’s not what happened, and you know it.
    And again, I don’t censor, I’m not like you, I don’t say half of the story, just to get more ‘votes’…

  18. Sebas; says:

    So let’s remove Stallman of the list of currently active GNU’s developers… I think that Alvaro is not “bastard”, only he did not liked the way he was sent off.

    • kakaroto says:

      @Sebas:
      Stallman is still active in the GNU community, but Alvaro isn’t, he completely abandonned the project 3 years ago.. he could have been dead, we never would have noticed it.. we asked him for help a few times and he ignored us.. and read my previous comment, he told me himself 3 years ago that there’s no reason for him to be there since he’s inactive.
      And like I explained in my post, I *never* said that Alvaro is a bastard. The title of the post is an answer to the hundreds of people who told ME that I was a bastard for what “I did to him”.

      @Robespain:
      It was but it’s not anymore, and it hasn’t been “alvaro’s messenger” for 5 or 6 years minimum. And like I said before, it doesn’t matter what he did, what matters is what he’s doing *now* or what he’ll be doing soon… We never “took him out” like he wants people to believe.. he’s still Alvaro and his work is still credited to him. He was only removed from the list of “Currently active developers”, because he’s not *currently* *active*…
      We never did anything wrong and we will never acknowledge doing something wrong simply because of the pressure we get from people who are fast to judge without reading the actual facts… One thing though that I accept and for which I already apologized for is that I should have notified everyone of their removal, but I didn’t, but now it’s too late.

      @yuip :
      Thanks a lot, comments like yours make my day! I’m happy to see that some people actually take the time to read the mails and understand the fact before starting a flamewar. Thanks for the encouragement.

      @Manuel:
      Please read before writing. I never called him bastard, as I explained many times already, and he didn’t create aMSN from “nothing”, it was a fork of ccmsn, and I never stole anything, I’ve spent more years and more time (at least 2 or 3 times more than everyone else together) on this project, I’d say maybe 70% of aMSN is coming from me, so I never stole anything, and all the work that he’s done is still credited to him, he has only been removed from the list of “currently active developers”, can you understand that????
      And I’m not crying like a baby, I’m simply defending my position and trying to get the truth out so people understand what’s really happening…

  19. Robespain says:

    This is a very nasty way to threat the founder of the project. If Alvaro said “Alvaro´s Msn” its becouse it was it, the origin of the name. So I dont understand what is the hurge to take him out.
    Some places I read it was done automatically by the launchpad, and others Younes he did it manually. I dont see the meaning.
    And if the founder of the project says he has noticed he is out, you must be a little less stupid and fix it, giving back into the project and not saying bullshit about if he does or not.
    And the worse part of this is that you dont recognize that you have done wrong.

  20. yuip says:

    First of all, I apologize if I make mistakes writing in English, I’m not good at it.

    I want to make clear that, though I’m spanish, I totally support KaKaRoTo, and I understand his point of view. It’s true that I must bit a little bit frustrating for Alvaro to be “banished” from a project that he started, but this is FLOSS, and if the original author doesn’t contribute to it anymore, other people can go on develope it. It doesn’t matter if it was the original author (thing that is very clear in the README: Help -> About) or other developer: if you don’t contribute to it anymore, it’s only natural that after a prudent time they don’t belong to the list of active developers (obviously) with all the things that this imply.

    The thing is that I’m detecting some of a typical spanish attitude all around this topic: we always want to live from the thing we’ve done in the past, although we’re not related to them anymore. Of course I understand Alvaro, i’d be a bit frustrating if it was my case, but he must understand that, if he lost contact with the project for so long, while other people was caring about it, he can’t have the privileges he had once. And please, don’t compare his case with Stallman, because are completely different. Stallman gave up his role as programmer (I’m not completely sure if he’s still programming from time to time now) to do other things related to the project, spreading the word all around the wolrd. I myself went to a conference he gave in Gijón (north of Spain), where I study, about FLOSS, GNU… So he’s still an active part of the project, but in a different way.

    And to all people who complain who Alvaro was treated, please, read the whole post, even the mailing list conversation they had. It’s not as bad as it seems. The problem is that Alvaro kept insisting in a such a stupid topic that KKRT lost his patient. And I repeat, I understant both sides and I’m with KKRT. This “war” is no such a big deal and there’s no reason for giving up using amsn, which, btw, is a great piece of software, thanks to all these great developers it had and has (including both, Alvaro and KKRT).

    Thx for reading this,

    Daniel.

  21. Manuel says:

    He didn’t call you ‘bastard’, but you do it from the 1st moment… it shows who is everyone.

    He build something really good from nothing, and now you have STOLEN his idea.
    If you don’t need his idea, take it back and start your own project.

    All that you are making here is crying like a baby.

  22. yuip says:

    @kakaroto

    From what I’m reading in Alvaro’s blog, people seem to talk about things they don’t understand or just don’t know. For instance, one guy who said that he had enough just reading Alvaro’s post and he says it doesn’t make any sense that he’s now out of the project. I find really annoying people who talk (write) about things knowing nothing or just a little part of it. The problem is that, in this case, there are so many people, and they are so stubborn, that one only feel overwhelmed about what’s going on.

    I hope you can keep doing your good work with amsn without so much troubles from now on.

    Best Regards

  23. Sebas; says:

    After thinking various days on it, I concluded that it’s a (very) silly discussion. If I were both of you, I would fix it with a Call of Duty combat.

    Cheers 🙂

  24. kakaroto says:

    @yuip: Yeah, I’ve read that, what I hate more than ignorance is people who are happy about their own ignorance and accept it..
    Anyways, I know very well how people are, I’ve been answering n00bs everyday in amsn forums, and I know how people can act/react without knowing anything and saying stupid stuff, it doesn’t affect me at all..
    This whole thing, this blog post isn’t about winning anything, I really don’t care about what people say or think, I just wanted to get my version of the story out there so that people can read both sides… then they can decide whatever they want.

    @Sebas: I don’t play Call of Duty.. got a better idea ? :p

  25. @kakaroto, @Sebas: We could beat ourselves in a “code to starvation” death duel. People like us usually find coding more enjoyable than playing call of duty. It would be nice for AMSN or other projects in the short term (for the “code” part), but quote bad in the long term (for the “death duel” part).

    @yuip: I agree people should read the full conversation and both blogs instead of starting to insult freely. What’s written in my blog post is just my opinion and feelings about all this.

    Apart from that,I still disagree on many of the things that are told on this post and comments, and I’ll comment on them.

    I don’t keep AMSN logs over the last three years, so I don’t remember if the conversation:

    Álvaro : i don’t mind being removed
    Álvaro : do what you want, really
    KaKaRoTo : btw, you’re not in amsn project anymore
    KaKaRoTo : you want me to add you ?
    Álvaro : yes i know
    Álvaro : i’m not doing anything right now
    Álvaro : so i don’t see the point
    Álvaro : if i want to code in amsn again, i can be readded then
    KaKaRoTo : you’re back :p
    Álvaro : thanks

    was exactly like that, or that is some kind of brief. In any case it is a bit weird and nonsense, exactly like the only we had on the mailing list where you added me back, and then removed me again.

    If you care (as it seems by your comments) about the psychological effects of words, I’m not an expert on that subject, but I would suggest not using the title “Who’s the bastard”, or the tags “amsn”, “alvaro”, “troll”, or things “Pain in the ass”, “Crybaby”, “Childish” if you don’t want people to think you’re insulting.

    I’ll just comment about some of the things I consider wrong (all text labeled “Quote” are things you just wrote on this post, comments, or the mailing list conversation) :

    Quote: “he could have been dead, we never would have noticed it..”
    Dead people reply to emails and write in blogs?

    Quote: “we asked him for help a few times and he ignored us..”
    ¿?

    Quote: “but Alvaro isn’t, he completely abandonned the project 3 years ago..”
    These examples are not 3 years ago.
    03/22/2010 -> http://www.mail-archive.com/amsn-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg09985.html
    http://amsn.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/amsn?view=rev&revision=10834
    http://amsn.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/amsn?view=rev&revision=10383

    Quote: “I’ve spent more years and more time (at least 2 or 3 times more than everyone else together) on this project”
    Quote: “/me is tired of the “mine is bigger” debates..wtf…”
    Quote: “It doesn’t matter what you did in the past!!!!”
    Quote: ” I don’t care what you did, where you did it, or when you did it, or for how long or how many commits you had, and if they were one liners or huge features.. it’s all the same, it’s in the past, and nobody cares.. ”

    About the “truth”:

    You seemed offended when I said “I don’t like people that think they’re in possession of the absolute truth”:
    Quote: “I don’t possess absolute truth, but neither do you”

    I never stated anything about the “truth”, as I’ve talked always about “opinions”. However, you keep on telling the “truth” is yours:

    Quote: “I’m simply defending my position and trying to get the truth out”

    That’s ok, I’m simply defending mine, and exposing my *opinions*.

    Quote: “saying he wants people to know the ‘truth’ while in fact he just said lies..”

    I don’t state anywhere that “What I’m writing is the truth” or “I want people to know the truth”. I don’t consider I’m lying, however.

    Quote: “you were just being your childish usual self, a real crybaby. If you take that as an insult (you will, since that’s all we said to you that you considered being ‘insults’), then too bad, it’s just the truth, not my fault if you don’t like the truth”

    I can accept you consider my a “real crybaby” or “childish”, but I don’t think that’s the “truth”, it’s just your opinion.

    About the post being written in spanish and about the “Meneame” thing, all the post in our blog are written in spanish. If you consider it is worth translating it into english and “digging” it, I think I can spend 10 minutes trying a more accurate translation. However I think google translate did a good enough job

    Greets.

    • kakaroto says:

      I’ll make this quick, you already wasted enough of our time, it’s not because you’ve got nothing to do in your life that you must waste everybody else’s time as well.
      That paste is real, I don’t modify the text just to suit my needs, the first two lines were sent about 10 minutes before the rest, and I removed some lines in between that were completely unrelated to that subject (we were discussing two things at the same time). If you want I can send you the log, but I don’t think I have anything to prove to you anyways. I took the decision to remove you, I didn’t notify you, sorry about that, then that’s it, I’ve got nothing more to say, you don’t like the decision, it’s your problem, not mine.
      I won’t change the title of the blog because some people are too stupid or lazy to read the content where I clearly say I’m not insulting you.. Just like you didn’t change your blog title to remove the whole “coup d’etat” thing, or change the image of aMSN showing me stabbing you in the back, so you have nothing to tell me… The tags are what they are, this is about amsn, about you and about you being a troll, I’m not gonna change that, and PITA is an expression, if you don’t understand the expression, it’s not my fault. The whole crybaby/childish thing is just my opinion, and if you think it’s insulting, again, it’s your problem, you wasted our time, you pissed us off, you kept whining, and whining, and I can’t say that you’re a childish crybaby that’s a PITA? nope, I have the right to express myself and I see no other way of describing what you were doing, if you think it’s an insult, that’s your problem, not mine, and I’m not going to start accommodating over-sensible/susceptible people just like that. If that was enough for you that you’d want to destroy amsn’s reputation, then good for you, I don’t care about what you do anyways anymore.
      The links are bullshit, forwarding one mail per year is NOT considered being active, forum users and stupid n00bs help out more than you by testing and reporting bugs.. but you don’t even test aMSN since you don’t even use it yourself anymore. And that whole pulidor branch is BS, we never knew what it was, you never said anything about it (apart when I asked you on MSN and you said your friends sometimes call you pulidor and it’s a cleaning thingy), you were completely disconnected from everyone, you did your two commits you’re so proud of, then you disappeared again, nobody knows what’s that branch for, and it never got merged. I don’t consider that active! If it was git, it would have been local to your repository, but it’s SVN, so it appears as a global commit, but it’s not in the main branch, so it’s nothing, that code never made it, so no, I do not consider that to be a valid commit at all.
      The rest of your quotes are just ‘wtf’, you’re just babbling about truth and whatever nonsense and I have no idea what you’re talking about, and I don’t care.

      Either way, you have your opinion, I have mine, don’t try to convince me of the contrary ’cause you will fail, and I won’t try to convince you of how wrong you are, ’cause I will fail, so let’s just drop the whole damn thing ’cause I really don’t give a damn about you anymore, so just leave, and go live in peace, leaving us in peace.
      I can’t believe you’re still caught up on this subject, this whole thing is over a month old and you can’t let go… wtf, you really have nothing better to do with your life than trolling.
      Adios!

  26. miguel says:

    Next time, think twice before messin’ with spanish “honra” : it’s a local kind of proud that turn us mad if we detect that anybody is puttin his finger inside our eye for no reasons. This case, was the way you’ve said Goodbye to Alvaro. I’ve read the history the first days and yes, you’re right but Alvaro is right too, both have reason to act like you did, but you failed to be kind when was time to bye the original developer in a kind manner 🙂 Too much time waisted on this, and believe me , you’re not fixin it callin’ now A. “troll”. It’s not very kind of you.

    So expect more floods of spanish avengers X-D and next time, be aware of specifical ethnical psychological treats … and be polite 😉

  27. Sebas; says:

    @miguel “La furia” española, he he… On Spain we became mad very easily.

    @alvaro I don’t consider a “code to starvation death duel” as the best way to solve a conflict XD. The fatest one would win! I guarantee you that a shooter combat burns more adrenalin and it’s more funny 😉

  28. JM says:

    I read your responses in the aMSN forums for awhile, I just read the back and forth in the mentioned and originating forum, and ultimately you do *appear* to be a smug bastard, really, an a-hole.

    Thats not something you should be doing in general, but running this project and acting that way to the founder is a huge mistake. People just don’t like people with that kind of attitude and will not support them. If he decides to get this more widely spread and then show some of your rude comments to USERS on your aMSN forums, people will jump ship. aMSN was great in the day, but it really isn’t much anymore anyways.

    I hope your attitude is just internet based, else, to be honest, you would be unbearable to most people in person. Just constructive criticism.

  29. kakaroto says:

    Hi, I like constructive comments, but I don’t like being insulted.. but let’s just take a deep breath and relax for a second, and assume that there was absolutely *no* other word to describe what you think of me apart from “a smug bastard, really, an a-hole” and I appreciate the “a-hole” instead of “asshole”, that was a nice touch.

    However, although I appreciate that you took the time to read the forums, and both my and Alvaro’s threads (I suppose) before starting any kind of flaming, however, I’d really like to see how much patience you would have yourself in my situation.. I’m sorry but spending thousands of hours of your time, for free, to make a product that you give out for the community, doing it with the only reward of receiving a “thanks” from time to time, and you see sometimes some people coming with huge arrogance, rudeness, and being ungrateful for the work you’ve given for them. That’s usually the one and only reason for which I become an ‘a-hole’. It’s only when I see people becoming rude and ungrateful and who think that I owe them something, that I’m their slave and that I should be giving them any kind of support…
    The forums are not mandatory, hell, the whole project isn’t mandatory, it’s there only to help people, we have no obligation towards anybody, and to me, although I’m doing all of this for the users, I feel that most of the users are just a nuisance, people who shouldn’t even be allowed to use a computer.

    Anyways, yes, I am rude, yes, I do insult, and yes, I do yell and scream and tell my users to fuck off, but only when I believe that they deserve it, only when in my head, I hear that voice saying “why would you try to be nice, and try to be respectful, towards people who aren’t nice and aren’t respectful to you.. if they don’t take the time to be polite, why would you take that time for them?”
    However, I am only human, and I do, completely agree, and accept the fact that I’ve sometimes been too rude to people who do not deserve it, that I’ve sometimes become angry (yes, it’s either 1 or 0, I don’t do “a little” when I get mad and tell people to fuck off) when the user didn’t mean to offend.. and yes, I sometimes have misunderstood what a user might have said or wanted to say, and if you read all of the forums, you will also see me apologize for the errors I’ve done, you’ll see me apologize for people I did wrong, and like I said, I’m only human, and I accept that.
    However, I’ve realized that giving 2 to 3 hours per day of my life to give support to ungrateful users has become too much of a burden.. after my many years doing this aweful job, I’ve realized that my temper went up and I became too easily trigerred into ‘fuck you’ mode, so I decided to take a step back, and it’s been a few months that I stopped reading or answering the forums and I delegated that task to someone else who hasn’t yet used up all of his life’s patience, hoping to get a better result.
    Like I said, I repeat it again, I am only human, and yes, like everybody else, I am flawed, and I never said the contrary.
    Whatever happened in the forums, or whatever I did, it is freely available for everyone to see.. as you’ve probably noticed, not once in my life have I edited/deleted a post or comment of mine, to ‘hide’ anything I said.. if I say something, I am ready to accept the possible consequences, and if you want to share with the world whatever I’ve done/said, feel free to do so, it’s not hidden anywhere, it’s always been available to everyone.
    About my attitude in real life, it is pretty much the same, not at the same extend, it’s obviously easier on the internet rather than in real life, I do not have the same short temper as with rude aMSN users, but I do however try to live up to my ‘code of honor’, I despise hypocrisy, and I praise honesty, if I don’t like something or someone, I do say it, I am blunt, some people understand me, and they become my friends, some people don’t understand me, or don’t accept it, and they never get too close to me because of that, but it doesn’t bother me, because someone who prefers hypocrisy to honesty is someone I would not like to be friends with anyways. I do however have a ‘diplomacy’ mode when needed, and I do not always act the same with everyone. After all, I don’t think I’m stupid.

    However, concerning your “acting that way to the founder”, I believe that you took the time to read my post (especially the ‘update’ at the top), and I hope you understand what I’m saying.. whatever we “acted” on to the “now long forgotten, and obviously inactive for years” founder, was never a mistake, it was never a “coup d’etat”, it was simply a remove from the “list of currently active developers” and I’m sorry, but he’s not active, so why would we put him in that list, but we never took over the software from his hands (he handed it over to me about 7 years ago, and he left the active development 5 years ago). 80% maybe of aMSN is my own code, what is left of his code is maybe 5%, so he might be the founder, but I’ve spent a hundred times more time on this and dedicated more of my own life to this project that he ever did, so I believe it’s a matter of “who did what” rather than “who did the first patch”.
    If you understand all of this and you still believe I’m wrong, then good, that’s your opinion and you’re definitely entitled to it. If I can’t change your mind, then I won’t, and I don’t really care.. this whole issue is loooong in the past, Alvaro decided for some reason to revive it and make us look like bastards, his choice, I don’t plan on going in any kind of war against anyone, I wanted to state my opinion, which I did already, and then let everyone use their own brains to decide what is right and what is wrong, who did the bad thing in the story. Obviously in my opinion, Alvaro is the one who did the wrong, he decided to overreact and decied to play the “coup d’etat” card and shatter our reputation and cause harm to the project he supposedly loves, but only I did was to update the information on the project. If he thinks that clicking the ‘forward’ button in his mail client once in 3 years is enough to warrant him the position of “active developer”, then something is wrong because we don’t have the same definiton of “active” or “developer”.
    Either way, This subject is long in the past as I said, and I don’t think it’s even worth wasting my time talking about it.. but what can I say, I just got home, I’m tired and a little bit bored, and I decided to give you a final answer. I don’t believe I’ll spend much more time on this subject, so anyone who comments here from now on, don’t feel offended if I don’t answer you, it’s just that this whole issue is BS and I don’t care about it anymore.

    Have a nice day,
    KaKaRoTo

  30. JM says:

    I didn’t read your whole post just yet. But I did read the first paragraph. I apologize by my wording. I don’t think you’re a “smug a-hole” (aka asshole). Rather I think you can *come across* as one. I never met you in real life, never talked to you one on one, or anything like that, so I cannot say in real life you are one or not.

    All I am saying is that some of the things you type in your aMSN forums and reading both your’s and Alvaro’s threads (at least the main ones… there maybe more, I don’t know) are extremely rude, and is smug and assholish (how’s that word? haha). People, rightly or wrongly, judge on behavior. On the internet, your/ours behaviors are merely words.

    Is that closer to constructive criticism? Honestly I am not meaning to insult you as a person, but rather bring to light how people may perceive you. If you are a face of aMSN (and you are, whether or not you want to be), people may not want to support or code for aMSN.

    I will read the rest of you post later today when I have more time, but felt it was important to *attempt* to clarify my words.

  31. William Hamra says:

    You all commenters are being childish, give kakaroto a break. i started using amsn 3 years ago, in those 3 years, i have seen no one but him doing all the hard work, answering every post in forum, and having to deal with all the BS from MS servers as they change them every freaking second.
    this is OPEN SOURCE DEVELOPMENT. no one owns the code, if Alvaro wants to take this position, he should have closed the source, patented it, put a stupid copyright notice on it, and might as well apply at MS as WLM developer. whoever works on the code, earns the respect of the users, period.
    kakaroto, don’t mind them, you’re doing an awesome job, from all msn clones i’ve seen, nothing can get close to the original WLM as amsn, and it even has features the original WLM doesn’t even have!!! i’m still not a big fan of TCL programs, responds kinda weird compared to QT or GTK, but it does the job, and it does it almost perfectly. i spend over 8 hours a day with amsn open, and in no way will kopete, kmess, pidgin or emesene ever satisfy me again.
    THANK YOU

  32. Darth says:

    It doesn’t matter what you did in the past!!!!, whaaaaaaat!!!, minimal manners to the former author.

  33. Zorman says:

    As a bilingual speaker I have been able to understand perfectly both blogs and both opinions and let me criticize constructively:

    @Kakaroto: I have seen many of your posts before and I can say that you have short temper, but no one can deny your hard work. Let’s say that the only thing you did wrong was removing Álvaro without letting him know. That he doesn’t want to work with the project anymore? Assuming that he didn’t answered emails, he didn’t do this or that, you know what? It’s his problem. If you think you are playing nice and doing things all right, then why “go down” to his level and play revenge on him deleting him without notice? It was your moment to become a better person and show him you were more mature than him. Just think it for the next time, is only a tip.

    @Álvaro: (I write english for the advantage of the rest of the readers) I know you founded the project, I know you worked long time hours on it and you deserved at least a mention on been removed after not working on it anymore. However, I don’t think there’s a “golpe de estado” because actually even if you were the founder you didn’t worked on it anymore. So, others took in, and got away what was your work. Your work is yet credited and all they do is write over those foundations that you worked before. But it’s like the monarchy system in your country: you are the king, whose powers are almost none but decorative because even if Spain is now built over the foundations developed by previous kings, it’s now ruled by the president rather than by the king. Let’s say that Kakaroto now is the president and you are the king; both things must be apart for the project to keep evolving. You can get a word again in the project, but you must begin as if you were new because you left it. And man, you’re spaniard and I respect you but you’re given credits for your foundation and in your consciousness must be proud of what you did wherever you’re credited for it or not (and that’s not the case). You can always retake what’s yours (fortunately, is open source) and continue developing aMSN.

    Don’t you both think that it would be better if you stop fights and discussions and as men that are both, leave this in the past?

  34. kakaroto says:

    @William Hamra: Thanks for your kind words!
    @Zorman: Yes, I admitted my error already and apologized for, however, there was no ‘fight’ or being angry at Alvaro or anything, I didn’t go down to his level or played revenge or anything. I deleted him along with 30 other people in a ‘routine’ cleanup.. I do it every few months, and I never tell anyone about it, because it’s just common knowledge “if you’re inactive, expect to be deleted after a few months of inactivity”. That’s all there is to it.
    And don’t worry, it is long in the past. I totally forgot about this issue until you posted a comment on the thread 🙂

  35. Zorman says:

    @Kakaroto: if it’s like that, then keep up the good work! 😀

  36. lauchazombie says:

    alvaro needs to learn opensource is not about ego.

  37. Stimpson J. Cat says:

    @lauchazombie
    Alvaro AND Kakaroto, making all this stupid thing public to the world is ridiculous

  38. Ryuk says:

    yum remove amsn….

    Not really, i’m never use amsn, i prefer emesene because it has better docs and updates.

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